The new deco info in the profile

Suggestions? Comments? Features you'd like to see?
Jean-Francois
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The new deco info in the profile

Post by Jean-Francois »

First of all I'll never say this enough, THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!!!!!!

Second, I've try it out and I thought I might give a few ideas to improve it even though I'm very happy with it.

1) if you "join selected dive" then the deco info disappear even if there was info before you joined them.
2) in the detail window on the graph profile, it would be great if we could have another line for TTS
3) it would be cool if we could have detailed info (text format) of the total deco like 12m 1', 9m 2', 6m 4' etc.... (it would help comparing what you planned and what actually happened under water.)

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy to have it. Just a few thoughts I have after playing with it for an hour.
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nick
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by nick »

Jean-Francois wrote:First of all I'll never say this enough, THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!!!!!!
No worries :)
1) if you "join selected dive" then the deco info disappear even if there was info before you joined them.
Right, I think I probably know why. I'll fix this up tonight. Thanks for catching it.

3) it would be cool if we could have detailed info (text format) of the total deco like 12m 1', 9m 2', 6m 4' etc.... (it would help comparing what you planned and what actually happened under water.)
This should be available in the Profile Inspector when you scrub your mouse (or on iOS, when you scrub your finger) over a portion of the profile when you were in deco.
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nick
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by nick »

Jean-Francois wrote: 2) in the detail window on the graph profile, it would be great if we could have another line for TTS
Ok. Because I feel bad it took me so long to add deco for you (and also because of your huge thanks, which I really do appreciate!), I've added TTS for you as well. It's in the Profile Inspector and you can toggle the overlay on as well if you want it. I've emailed you a link to the beta so you can try it out.

As with deco, you'll need to either download dives again or refresh them. Note that currently if you sync to iOS it will not display any of these updated profiles. It won't crash (hah, hopefully.. ), it will just tell you there is no profile. Because the data is different I need to upload a new version to TestFlight, which will take a while to get reviewed as it's a new beta.

I also took a stab at fixing the join-profiles bug you mentioned, that's in the beta too.
Jean-Francois
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by Jean-Francois »

Thanks Nick,

I've tried it out. Luckily I went diving this morning so I had a new dive to play with :)

1) Join selected dive : the deco is showing. Awesome.

2) TTS in the Profile Inspector : It's so lovely I almost cried :) Seriously it's great.

3) I think didn't express myself correctly there (no surprise). Indeed if you mouse over a part of the dive in the graph I can see, in the profile inspector, the deco info (depth and time). What I'm looking for (if it's easy to implement) is to have the whole rundown, like you can find in a planning software. Something like this (don't look at the layout)

21m TX 15/30 1'
18m TX 15/30 2'
15m TX 15/30 2'
12m TX 15/30 2'
9m TX 15/30 4'
6m TX 15/30 5'
3m TX 15/30 8'

I don't know if that info is easy to extract and put into a readable form. For now I can simply mouse over the graph and add manually all the stops.
Again no biggie, all the info is there so and it's great and I'm very happy.

P.S: on a side note, and for the future if you ever run out of ideas for improvements :mrgreen: , it would be great to have another tab in the inspector with all the deco info available : TTS, every stops (depth and time), Deco model (can the settings be gathered from the dive computer btw? not just GF but ZHL-L16-GF CC 50/80 ?)
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nick
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by nick »

Great, glad #1 and #2 are sorted. Still waiting for beta approval for the TestFlight version, I expect that will be sometime today.

Right, I get what you mean now. Do you just mean for this to be more readable somewhere? For example, would a popup with a table work for you? Or did you intend to have something you could copy/paste (eg just a block of text) ?

Adding a popover which has a table that describes the information you want is pretty straightforward. I need to have a think about exactly where it would fit in to the UI, but it's not a big deal to add.

One option that comes to mind could be if you click within the deco portion of the graph then the popover appears at that point (eg like clicking on an image or alarm on the profile). Otherwise I suppose I could jam a button somewhere inside the gas tab. (I still need to redesign this, that process is sort of underway but will take time). Hmm. I will think on it.. I'll have a play around tonight.
weppos
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by weppos »

Jean,

I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation. But I am quite interested in the deco data as well.
Regarding #3, I am curious to know what exactly Petrel (or other computers) would share.

Reason is because I think it's quite unlikely each sample contains enough data to provide a structured plan as the one you reported:

21m TX 15/30 1'
18m TX 15/30 2'

That's because the deco is effectively calculated in real time. Executing a deco is quite different than planning a deco.
Let me show an example. If I pick this profile (note I replaced Tx 15/30 with a more appropriate deco gas for that stages):

21m Nx50 1'
18m Nx50 2'
15m Nx50 2'
12m Nx50 2'
9m Nx50 4'

I can guarantee you from experience that you can happily evenly spread the deco and execute:

21m Nx50 2'
18m Nx50 2'
15m Nx50 2'
12m Nx50 2'
9m Nx50 3'

Those profile are effectively the same (you can check in the deco software, the runtime would be the same). And this assumes the mix stays the same.

But during the dive things can happen, regardless the plan:

- You can change deco gas at 6m into O2
- You can spend more minutes at 15 and less at 9
- etc etc

The computer has to deal with all this stuff. I looked into the data I can get from my Petrel, and here's the chart I found in one of my deco dives.
The deco profile tells me I have 1' at 36m. I was at 85, so I can tell you for sure I had way more minutes than 1 at 36m in front of me. In fact, here's where the TTS is probably a better value.

Also, I changed 3 times gas during the ascent. So even if the profile would have told me somehow all the different steps at any given sample, it would have been changed almost every minute during my ascent while it adjusted to my current dive profile.

Basically, what I'm saying, is that I hardly think having a popover with the remaining deco plan is a kind of data we can get from the computer in a sample.

For the records, I also attach the same dive as it shows in the Shearwater software.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2018-11-13 at 20.37.58.png
Screen Shot 2018-11-12 at 21.54.33.png
Last edited by weppos on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nick
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by nick »

Deco model (can the settings be gathered from the dive computer btw? not just GF but ZHL-L16-GF CC 50/80 ?)
The gradient factors in are there. The deco model is also being read from the device, but MacDive is just displaying it as "GF" and not with the actual values appended as part of it. I could change it to do that? I guess this is down to how you want to use it.

I was planning on adding the gradient factors anyway, it's just that it needs a MacDive data format change (shortly..). If you would prefer to just have it as part of the deco model itself, then that's something I can change now easily.
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nick
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by nick »

Just let me clarify quickly: I will not be adding functionality to plan decompression dives.

What I'm happy to do though is add ways to display previously logged information in a format that you find convenient or useful. If it's useful to display the same information that is overlaid on the profile in a more tabular way (which is all I think we were talking about) then that's fine, it's really just a different view of what's already there.

But I will let you discuss it and if you come up with a consensus, then I will build something. So.. carry on.. :)
weppos
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by weppos »

Just let me clarify quickly: I will not be adding functionality to plan decompression dives.
I'm with you ;)
What I'm happy to do though is add ways to display previously logged information in a format that you find convenient or useful. If it's useful to display the same information that is overlaid on the profile in a more tabular way (which is all I think we were talking about) then that's fine, it's really just a different view of what's already there.
I think that would be great. As I mentioned you via email, the suunto app was doing something similar.
You could plan a dive, save it as a Plan, then download the profile, and associate the profile with the plan to see the differences.
I was planning on adding the gradient factors anyway, it's just that it needs a MacDive data format change (shortly..). If you would prefer to just have it as part of the deco model itself, then that's something I can change now easily.
Lovely. Just keep in mind the presence of a GF depends on the model. Eg. Bühlmann (ZHL) has a GF (well, technically only certain versions, still...). But if you use VPM you have a factor (0, +1, +2, etc). I currently adjust the text field accordingly:

Image
Image

I've heard a lot of people saying VPM is dead, ZHL replaced it. The reality is that ZHL becames too conservative below certain levels (e.g plan a dive at 90' with ZHL and the same with VPM: with ZHL can be even an hour longer). Therefore for deep dives you will likely still use VPM.
Jean-Francois
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Re: The new deco info in the profile

Post by Jean-Francois »

Please Weppos join the discussion I'm always happy to learn new stuff.

TLDR version first

Deco Info : Block of text (depth and time) in a window (Deco Inspector? :) ) like the Profile Inspector.
GF : the actual value instead of just GF. (much like weppos has shown)

Now the wall of text :)

Basically what I 'd like is a block of text showing the deco.
The format can be as simple as depth and time only or more complex if you want to add the gas mix, the GF etc. If the run time and the TTS are displayed there all the better but those 2 info are available somewhere else.
Gas mix would be the one making the most sense I guess. I think this can be useful for OC or CC when bailing out. The gradient factor would be useful only if you changed it under water which happens once every millennia.
Note : I'm happy with the simple version.

So the simple version (completely made up)

12m 1'
9m 2'
6m 5'
3m 8'
RT : 58'
TTS : 19'

The more "complex" i.e. more data

12m 1' Nx73 (GF 25/75)
9m 2' Nx80 (GF 25/75)
6m 5' O2 or Nx100 (GF 25/99)
3m 8' O2 or Nx100 (GF 25/99)
RT : 58'
TTS : 19'

For the layout : a window similar to the Profile Inspector (called Deco Inspector? :) ) which can be displayed or not via the view menu would be ideal (if easy to implement). That way those who don't want/need the info can choose not to display it. Btw, it you add RT and TTS to that new window, you can remove the TTS from the Profile Inspector.

What I'm currently doing for my deco dive is mouse over each step, writing down depth and time. Then putting them in a readable format and compare it to the plan I had.
I've realized that what you dive is not exactly what you plan, especially for rebreather since I've been taught to use the TTS instead of a rigid Run Time. The idea is to get data to see how much the actual dive differs from the planning. I must admit I haven't been able to get much info yet.

I don't want to add too much work for you Nick. If it's easy and not time consuming, I'd like to have that window if not, then what we have is perfectly fine.

Edit : spelling
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