Remarks in bulk - new customer

[tramjoe]

Hello,

I purchased MacDive a little while ago, and now that I am really starting using it, I have a bunch of questions/remarks. Please note that I tried to read the wiki/FAQ and ML, but some things I could not solve this way.

First, a note on my config: Mares Nemo wide with 3.0 firmware (the 3 gas one) and Mac OS X Lion.

1) SAC and merged dives

I am currently in training for a CMAS 2*, and that implies many dives with surface time (assisted ascents drills). Most of the time, we chat a little after surfacing, hence my computer registers separate dives, that I then merge under MacDive.

Is MacDive considering that I am using air on the surface or not ? My calculated SAC (using a tank gear item and start/end air pressure) seems a bit off in those cases (too low), this is why I am asking.

2) Certification field

First, I would suggest you add CMAS as a certification agency in the default values. I am from France, and our certs here are double-sided FFESSM(local diving federation)/CMAS. That would be nice

Second, there is a chicken-and-egg issue with some of the training dives. When I did my PADI OW, I had no other cert. But MacDive does not let me leave the certification field empty. What am I supposed to put in that field ? My OW cert that I did not have (yet) at the time of these dives ? Also, I find the whole concept of a certification associated with a dive a bit awkward. If I am diving on my own (or in the aforementioned case), I
should be able to leave the field blank. If I am diving in, say, a PADI structure on a 35m night-dive, should I attach my PADI Deep Diver cert, or my night-dive cert ? What if I am doing this in a drysuit ? etc. One thing I know is that I should be able to link in at least my AOW cert to the dive, but this is not enough on its own to justify the depth/night/etc.

One suggestion here would be to differenciate the certs (OW, AOW, Rescue, DM) from the specialties (dry suit, night, etc.). This would also work with other certification agencies than PADI (though for instance CMAS does not have specialties for depth, which are part of the certs themselves only, but has dry suit, etc. as separate specialties).

3) Gear

I would love to have generic gear items, aka the ones I rent/borrow from a shop when I go diving, in addition to my own gear. Of course, I can just add the rental gear, but it really is not clean to have the purchase date filled in that has no meaning, and all the other fields.

Second, regarding purchase price, I have some items bought as a pack, but I want to split it in my gear database. This means I have to set the price to 0 for some items, and add a comment explaining why/the pack contents. To solve this, I suggest a "Bought as pack" checkbox, that would enable a pack name. If checked, all items linked to that pack would have the same price and purchase date, and the contents of the pack would simply be the list of gear items linked to that pack name.

4) Columns preferences

I noticed that the columns sizes are not saved accross sessions. This really is annoying, as I have to resize everytime to get a clean view of my dives. This is clearly a bug (and I mean a bug, not a "missing feature", as this behaves opposite to what is naturally expected and is really annoying).

Also, when trying to edit directly a field in column view, the behavior is strange. For the same field, sometimes double click will pop the dive edition window, sometimes it will allow in-place editing. At first I thought it depend on the double-click speed, but after trying many things it does not. Sometimes, on a selected line, a single click is enough to edit in place, sometimes not. In fact it apparently waits a long time for a second click (triggering double click behavior -> popping the window) and after that delay, if no second click has occured, allows in-place editing. I think either the double click delay is too long or there is something fishy under the hood.

When editing a field in place, ESC should cancel the edit and revert to the previous value. It does neither.

5) Optional graphs

With my computer, I have none of the optional graphs (SAC, temp, NDT, Air). This is fine, but having all the buttons displayed anyway with a default empty Temp curve from -1 to +1 degs is both ugly and eats up screen real estate. Why not simply hide the unavailable buttons, and the whole sub panel when relevant ? That would be a much cleaner interface. When I show MacDive to friends, invariably I get the "mmmh, that seems broken, look at that buggy temp graph there" comment.

6) Bugged merged graphs

All the merged dives I have display buggy graphs: On the time axis, the graph goes beyond the right-side vertical bar that is supposed to be the graph boundary, and the depth there is wrong too. See this:



7) Documentation

The semantics of the various fields is messy. For 25 bucks, I was expecting doc and features better than open-source counterparts. This is not the case. The only doc I could find about this was on the wiki, documenting just 4 fields!! At least add predefined reasonable defaults that would be self-explanatory.

8) Save/autosave

Bad semantics. There is a save menu option, a restore from save, and apparently some sort of autosave. How am I supposed to know when autosave occurs ? What about providing a save as option to allow for more flexible experimentation (notably on merging dives, which you can undo right after the fact, but not "unmerge" at a later time. With the merged dives questions above, this is a killer one.)

9) Missing features on graphs

I noticed that you do have the code to compute ascent/descent speeds, as you display them for free dives. But I found no way on getting those VERY important metrics for my Air dives. Have I missed something there or is that not implemented ?

Also, I miss a lot the decompression stop data on the graphs. I know that the data exists somewhere, as the Mares software is capable of displaying those in a different color on the graphs. But even without going to specifics of each manufacturer's computer data format, the possibility to select and annotate/change color for parts of the graph would be a must.

10) Autocompletion in dive master field (dive inspector)

My dive master usually have both a first and last name. Also, there is only one divemaster per field. Why does the autocompletion suggestions here only gives me one at a time instead of the full name ? The completions list should be built with the whole strongs from existing fields, not space-separated substrings. This is a bug (probably also present for other fields I did not double-check/used).

11) Bottom time and merged dives

This also includes the surface time between merged dives, hence being totally different from what I have in my paper stamped logs. Why ? That should substract the total time spent on surface!

12) Synthesis mode (click on the Sigma icon).

I have two dives out of 15 dives with a SAC: dive 13 and dive 14, SACs 12.92 and 22.42 respectively. The Sigma icon, for average SAC rate displays an empty graph, with just the lowest SAC of the two as max SAC axis value, and that's it:



13) Shuffle preview mode

Unsure how you call this one. It is the first icon on the left of list and Sigma ones.
When clicking on it, I just get a black rectangle in the graph area, and my dives list below, nothing else

Conclusion)

Well, I have some other points to report, but I got tired of going back to MacDive, retesting, rechecking if I missed something, describing the problem, etc. For 25 bucks, I have mixed feelings about this software. But I like the general layout of it, the fact that is is a Mac native app, so I still have hope. Hence the time I spent testing and reporting the above. I just hope that you will be reactive and give good answers to my questions/remarks, which would mean I'll keep using MacDive. Also I intend to publish a review of a couple of DiveLog software on a couple of divers forum I participate in, so in order to be fair, I'll wait for a complete answer from you before getting on it.

Best Regards,
Jerome Martin

[nick]

Hello,
Is MacDive considering that I am using air on the surface or not ? My calculated SAC (using a tank gear item and start/end air pressure) seems a bit off in those cases (too low), this is why I am asking.

Actually this is a good point - not really, the overall rate is calculated on the average depth/bottom time, but isn't factoring that in at all. It may not be technically accurate, but it's consistent between dives.

2) Certification field

First, I would suggest you add CMAS as a certification agency in the default values. I am from France, and our certs here are double-sided FFESSM(local diving federation)/CMAS. That would be nice

CMAS is already in the next update.

Second, there is a chicken-and-egg issue with some of the training dives. When I did my PADI OW, I had no other cert. But MacDive does not let me leave the certification field empty. What am I supposed to put in that field ? My OW cert that I did not have (yet) at the time of these dives ? Also, I find the whole concept of a certification associated with a dive a bit awkward. If I am diving on my own (or in the aforementioned case), I
should be able to leave the field blank. If I am diving in, say, a PADI structure on a 35m night-dive, should I attach my PADI Deep Diver cert, or my night-dive cert ? What if I am doing this in a drysuit ? etc. One thing I know is that I should be able to link in at least my AOW cert to the dive, but this is not enough on its own to justify the depth/night/etc.

One suggestion here would be to differenciate the certs (OW, AOW, Rescue, DM) from the specialties (dry suit, night, etc.). This would also work with other certification agencies than PADI (though for instance CMAS does not have specialties for depth, which are part of the certs themselves only, but has dry suit, etc. as separate specialties).

When you first create a dive, the field has no value - you don't have to set it. Though, you are correct, you can't unset it, which is annoying.

As for what you use it for - that's really up to you. There's no rule, it's just there. You can use the field to indicate you were doing training dives for that certification, or you can use it to indicate that is your current level at the time, for example.

I would love to have generic gear items, aka the ones I rent/borrow from a shop when I go diving, in addition to my own gear. Of course, I can just add the rental gear, but it really is not clean to have the purchase date filled in that has no meaning, and all the other fields.

So don't fill it in? Just because fields are there doesn't mean you need to use them. Unfortunately there will always be fields that some people don't want, or things that don't work exactly the way everyone wants in every situation.

I could always add a "rental" checkbox or something.

Second, regarding purchase price, I have some items bought as a pack, but I want to split it in my gear database. This means I have to set the price to 0 for some items, and add a comment explaining why/the pack contents. To solve this, I suggest a "Bought as pack" checkbox, that would enable a pack name. If checked, all items linked to that pack would have the same price and purchase date, and the contents of the pack would simply be the list of gear items linked to that pack name.

Interesting suggestion - let me have a think on that one.

4) Columns preferences

I noticed that the columns sizes are not saved accross sessions. This really is annoying, as I have to resize everytime to get a clean view of my dives. This is clearly a bug (and I mean a bug, not a "missing feature", as this behaves opposite to what is naturally expected and is really annoying).

Well, it's not "clearly a bug". It's just working differently to what you desire/expect. The fields are autosized to fit their content when you relaunch. I chose to do it this way. If the majority of people would prefer that there is no autosizing, and that the columns simply remember their last width, then I'm happy to change it. Or I could add a preference.

Also, when trying to edit directly a field in column view, the behavior is strange. For the same field, sometimes double click will pop the dive edition window, sometimes it will allow in-place editing. At first I thought it depend on the double-click speed, but after trying many things it does not. Sometimes, on a selected line, a single click is enough to edit in place, sometimes not. In fact it apparently waits a long time for a second click (triggering double click behavior -> popping the window) and after that delay, if no second click has occured, allows in-place editing. I think either the double click delay is too long or there is something fishy under the hood.

There is nothing fishy, this works as per the standard OS. Click once on the text to edit it. Double click NOT on text and the inspector will open up. If you have a look through the forum, this was added as a request somewhere. Seems to work fine to me.

There is nothing custom going on under the hood - all editing is done within the mac frameworks, and the double click action is accepted and acted upon.

When editing a field in place, ESC should cancel the edit and revert to the previous value. It does neither.

Press Undo (Command + Z)

5) Optional graphs

With my computer, I have none of the optional graphs (SAC, temp, NDT, Air). This is fine, but having all the buttons displayed anyway with a default empty Temp curve from -1 to +1 degs is both ugly and eats up screen real estate. Why not simply hide the unavailable buttons, and the whole sub panel when relevant ? That would be a much cleaner interface. When I show MacDive to friends, invariably I get the "mmmh, that seems broken, look at that buggy temp graph there" comment.

I can look at hiding those.

6) Bugged merged graphs

All the merged dives I have display buggy graphs: On the time axis, the graph goes beyond the right-side vertical bar that is supposed to be the graph boundary, and the depth there is wrong too. See this:

Can you send me your MacDive.sqlite data? I can take a look at this.

7) Documentation

The semantics of the various fields is messy. For 25 bucks, I was expecting doc and features better than open-source counterparts. This is not the case. The only doc I could find about this was on the wiki, documenting just 4 fields!! At least add predefined reasonable defaults that would be self-explanatory.

Could you be a bit more specific as to what you are talking about here?

8) Save/autosave

Bad semantics. There is a save menu option, a restore from save, and apparently some sort of autosave. How am I supposed to know when autosave occurs ? What about providing a save as option to allow for more flexible experimentation (notably on merging dives, which you can undo right after the fact, but not "unmerge" at a later time. With the merged dives questions above, this is a killer one.)

Unmerge was working with undo previously - maybe something on Loin broke this. Let me check it out, as that's wrong.

Autosave occurs in certain cases, and on exit.

9) Missing features on graphs

I noticed that you do have the code to compute ascent/descent speeds, as you display them for free dives. But I found no way on getting those VERY important metrics for my Air dives. Have I missed something there or is that not implemented ?

This feature currently only exists for free dives.

Also, I miss a lot the decompression stop data on the graphs. I know that the data exists somewhere, as the Mares software is capable of displaying those in a different color on the graphs. But even without going to specifics of each manufacturer's computer data format, the possibility to select and annotate/change color for parts of the graph would be a must.

I'll put in on the to do list, but I'm not sure I'd call it a must

10) Autocompletion in dive master field (dive inspector)

My dive master usually have both a first and last name. Also, there is only one divemaster per field. Why does the autocompletion suggestions here only gives me one at a time instead of the full name ? The completions list should be built with the whole strongs from existing fields, not space-separated substrings. This is a bug (probably also present for other fields I did not double-check/used).

Again this is not a bug, this is by design. It used to be the full name, and the consensus was that individual names completing were favored, so I changed it. The auto completion works in a similar way to other fields, there's nothing DM specific about it.

Nothing stops you typing in multiple dive masters. You could perhaps separate them with something like a comma.

11) Bottom time and merged dives

This also includes the surface time between merged dives, hence being totally different from what I have in my paper stamped logs. Why ? That should substract the total time spent on surface!

Because it's not strictly bottom time, it's the total time of the dive.

12) Synthesis mode (click on the Sigma icon).

I have two dives out of 15 dives with a SAC: dive 13 and dive 14, SACs 12.92 and 22.42 respectively. The Sigma icon, for average SAC rate displays an empty graph, with just the lowest SAC of the two as max SAC axis value, and that's it:

Again send me your MacDive.sqlite data file and I'll take a look.

13) Shuffle preview mode

Unsure how you call this one. It is the first icon on the left of list and Sigma ones.
When clicking on it, I just get a black rectangle in the graph area, and my dives list below, nothing else

It's the coverflow icon - if you have photos, then that will be your photos in overflow mode:

http://mac-dive.com/screenshots/coverflow.png

It would be good to have a default "no images available" or something though, I'll look in to that.

Well, I have some other points to report, but I got tired of going back to MacDive, retesting, rechecking if I missed something, describing the problem, etc. For 25 bucks, I have mixed feelings about this software. But I like the general layout of it, the fact that is is a Mac native app, so I still have hope. Hence the time I spent testing and reporting the above. I just hope that you will be reactive and give good answers to my questions/remarks, which would mean I'll keep using MacDive. Also I intend to publish a review of a couple of DiveLog software on a couple of divers forum I participate in, so in order to be fair, I'll wait for a complete answer from you before getting on it.

Best Regards,
Jerome Martin

Jerome,

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. I guess I should address your final point, which is that you're unhappy with the price. I actually think it's a pretty reasonable price. You don't just get an application for that. You also get ongoing development and free updates, fairly regularly. You should take a look at various forum posts and more importantly at the release notes - you will see that since 2.0.0, there have been a vast number of updates and new features added, not the least of which is full bidirectional syncing with Dive Log on iOS. There have been many other smaller features added, too, and bugs are addressed as quickly as possible.

You know, a polite email requesting a feature will get you a long way - typically (and when I am not in the middle of a major upgrade), I get requests added and a beta sent back to whoever asked for it, within a day or so. Same with the inevitable bugs - I get fixed versions back ASAP. I like to think, and hope very much, that the customer support is pretty good.

I guess my main point is that you shouldn't think of MacDive as being static, in any way. It has always been, and will always be, a work in progress. I spend a lot of time addressing requests and trying to improve it. That's what you also get for your $25. So if you have a problem or you see something not quite right, you don't have to sit on it. Send me an email explaining the problem, and we can work to fix it and make it better for everybody.

Again thanks for taking the time to post this - a lot of it can be addressed pretty easily. Unfortunately it won't make the next update which is essentially complete and will be out shortly, but I'll start looking at it for the following update.

hth.

[nick]

Scratch that - undo of merging dives is working fine for me. If you're seeing problems, can you send me your MacDive.sqlite file, and explain the process you are using and what is wrong - I'll take a look. As far as I can tell there is no issue.

And one other thing - I'm aware the docs aren't great. Honestly, I would rather spend the time adding new features and improving the app than writing documentation. Is there anything specific you would like me to update or add some better documentation on that might help in the interim? I would like to revamp it and rewrite it all and make it better, but I tend to end up focusing on the app itself.

For the most part, if you have a question you can drop me an email and get a personal response within an hour or so if I'm awake. That's gotta be better than reading through boring help..

[tramjoe]

Hi Nick,

I am going to bed now, and probably won't be able to reply for the next 24/48 hours or so, so I figured I'll just drop you a quick comment.

First, thanks for replying and addressing most of my questions/complaints.

Second, I fear I wasn't that clear about the price. $25 (well, 25 euros IIRC, which was unexpected and about 30% more expensive actually, but not that big of a deal) is a fair price for a dive log software. Especially if you commit to providing maintenance for the software. My point was that in order to swallow the commercial (not open-source + price tag attached) nature of the software, I am expecting something really above what already exist in terms of functionality and robustnest/foolproofness, and I am not yet convinced this is the case.

Mind you, I realize that I have an - inevitable - bias towards what _I_ prefer most. Of course, _you_ have to take into account what suit best for the majority of your customer base. I understand that, and it is completely fair. If I end up feeling that MacDive is too far away from my subjective liking, I'll just switch. This is one point where the commercial vs open source kicks in: I cannot change myself what I don't like.

Overall, though, I feel some lack of coherency in the implementation of minor things (to my liking, but I could back that up with what I feel are strong arguments but long to develop here), like what you said about DM names completion (i.e. I consider your implementation choice as bad practice, if you want to allow multiple dive masters, make that explicit, with the possibility retaining a better autocompletion, but this is just an example). It's not per se just about details, but more about the feeling that details are handled just like that - details - instead of putting clean genericity in the implementation.

But hey, it's just my own 2c here, and if people like it this way, who am I to say they're wrong

As for the unmerge, I wasn't talking about an undo, but a real unmerge. One that would imply saving the individual dives details along the new merged dive data structure, and allows to revert to the individual dives at any time in the future.

Sorry for not replying point by point, but I have to wake up in 6 hours (2 dives planned tomorrow ). Will do my best to match your kind answer ASAP though

Best Regards,
Jerome

P.S.: Will now send you the DB file before bed via PM.

[nick]

Second, I fear I wasn't that clear about the price. $25 (well, 25 euros IIRC, which was unexpected and about 30% more expensive actually, but not that big of a deal) is a fair price for a dive log software. Especially if you commit to providing maintenance for the software. My point was that in order to swallow the commercial (not open-source + price tag attached) nature of the software, I am expecting something really above what already exist in terms of functionality and robustnest/foolproofness, and I am not yet convinced this is the case.

The price is $25 USD. The payment processor will add any tax that is required based on where you live, and show you the price in your local currency. So it depends on whatever that worked out to based on exchange rates at the time. This is displayed on the order page and should also be on your receipt. If it's not clear, let me know - I can talk to the third party that processes the payments and pass on your feedback.

As for "not being convinced" - there is a trial version. You're more than welcome to download that and give it a go, and see if its what you want. Same with a large number of other Mac apps. You get almost the full functionality (just iOS syncing that doesn't make it) so there should be nothing that is a surprise. You're still arguing that it's not worth $25, and I'm sorry you feel that way, so if you are unhappy with your purchase please contact me via email and I will arrange a refund for you.

Overall, though, I feel some lack of coherency in the implementation of minor things (to my liking, but I could back that up with what I feel are strong arguments but long to develop here), like what you said about DM names completion (i.e. I consider your implementation choice as bad practice, if you want to allow multiple dive masters, make that explicit, with the possibility retaining a better autocompletion, but this is just an example). It's not per se just about details, but more about the feeling that details are handled just like that - details - instead of putting clean genericity in the implementation.

No, it's not perfect. Again if you're not happy please contact me directly via email and I will arrange a refund. However, for anything you don't like I'm open to requests and suggestions in order to make it better. I already mentioned it, but if you look back over the release notes for previous versions I think you'll see that maintenance happens, it happens regularly, and you get a lot of stuff after the purchase. It's not static - it grows.

It's not perfect. It's far from it. What it is, though, is a work in progress. I'm sure most people will agree that it has come along way since 2.0.0, and a large amount of that is based on user feedback, and that's all been included in the package.

As for the unmerge, I wasn't talking about an undo, but a real unmerge. One that would imply saving the individual dives details along the new merged dive data structure, and allows to revert to the individual dives at any time in the future.

Reverting to individual dives would imply that merged dives were handled very differently. That's not possible currently. They are actually merged - the dive is now one dive. I'm planning some changes to "dives" that may make this feasible, but for now, it's really not possible without some significant changes under the hood. I'll keep it in mind as I'm making my planned upgrades though, as I may be able to work it in when I get the new changes done.

Sorry for not replying point by point, but I have to wake up in 6 hours (2 dives planned tomorrow ). Will do my best to match your kind answer ASAP though

It's ok - actually I would prefer if you didn't. It would be easier in separate threads of related items, or if we just carry this on over email. Replying to a large post with quotes like this becomes a bit of a nightmare to read and reply to. Or at least if we can just attack a few points at a time.

P.S.: Will now send you the DB file before bed via PM.

Thanks - I'll take a look at this over the next couple of days and see what I can resolve.

[Jean-Francois]

As I saw this post, I decided to rebound on some of the request to add my opinion or my vote.

4) Columns preferences

I noticed that the columns sizes are not saved accross sessions. This really is annoying, as I have to resize everytime to get a clean view of my dives. This is clearly a bug (and I mean a bug, not a "missing feature", as this behaves opposite to what is naturally expected and is really annoying).

Well, it's not "clearly a bug". It's just working differently to what you desire/expect. The fields are autosized to fit their content when you relaunch. I chose to do it this way. If the majority of people would prefer that there is no autosizing, and that the columns simply remember their last width, then I'm happy to change it. Or I could add a preference.

I would love to have Mac Dive remember the size of the fields. So +1 here

11) Bottom time and merged dives

This also includes the surface time between merged dives, hence being totally different from what I have in my paper stamped logs. Why ? That should substract the total time spent on surface!

Because it's not strictly bottom time, it's the total time of the dive.

could we have the option to choose wether we want bottom or total ? No big deal really just a nice feature to have. For now I enter the dive time manually so I have the exact same one as my OSTC.

[nick]

With my computer, I have none of the optional graphs (SAC, temp, NDT, Air). This is fine, but having all the buttons displayed anyway with a default empty Temp curve from -1 to +1 degs is both ugly and eats up screen real estate. Why not simply hide the unavailable buttons, and the whole sub panel when relevant ? That would be a much cleaner interface. When I show MacDive to friends, invariably I get the "mmmh, that seems broken, look at that buggy temp graph there" comment.

I've fixed this so that it shows you "No Temperature Data", but I like the idea of hiding the smaller graphs and using up more real estate. Not sure I'll have time to get that in the next update, but I'll try for the one after.

I've updated the Certifications popup to add the back side of the card.

I have fixed the issue with the graph drawing off the end. It will be resolved in the next update, due out in the next week or two.

The stats/sac rate graph is already fixed in the next update.

I've removed the table column autosizing for now, too. I realised that the primary reason I did this was so that you got some decent column sizes by default - but it doest actually get performed until you restart anyway. Given I've had a few other requests about this, lets give it a try.

Actually, you know what - it's probably better to just have an "autosize columns" option somewhere that can be used, and leave the widths remembered where you left them. Maybe that's the best of both worlds?

[gjc999]

Actually, you know what - it's probably better to just have an "autosize columns" option somewhere that can be used, and leave the widths remembered where you left them. Maybe that's the best of both worlds?

I would humbly suggest that you display the columns as they were the last time Mac Dive was closed, but have a small button or a hot key that can autosize the currently displayed columns on the fly.

[nick]

That's what I did.

[nick]

Unsure how you call this one. It is the first icon on the left of list and Sigma ones.
When clicking on it, I just get a black rectangle in the graph area, and my dives list below, nothing else

This is a really great point, and I've fixed it for the next update. You'll get a "no photos!" sorta message and a placeholder if there isn't anything there. Hopefully that makes it much more obvious.